How to convince a tech recruiter to hire you?
A conversation with Mirela and Molly from Project A Ventures.
A conversation with Mirela and Molly from Project A Ventures.
Watch the video above or read the HIGHLIGHTS below
Meet Talent Acquisition Leads Mirela Stefan and Molly Barrett from Project A Ventures in Berlin. Project A is one of Berlin’s premier VC funds, attracting about 1000 applications per month.
Fernanda (Co-Founder & COO Imagine Foundation, Moderator): Hello everyone, today we have our second “Ask us Anything” Meeting. The topic today is recruitment in Berlin. We will try to answer questions like:
how recruiters find talent in Berlin
what you can do for getting prepared for interviews
what you can do for catching the recruiter’s attention through your LinkedIn profile, to your CV for example.
So, we invited two experts to share their knowledge and their experience with us and they immediately accepted the invitation. So, thank you very much for that!
Mirela (Project A): You’re welcome!
Fernanda (Moderator): We have here Molly Barrett and Mirela Stefan, they are recruiters and they work for Project A Ventures. You provide talent acquisition solutions for more than 45 companies, right? So they have broad and deep experience. They work with several profiles and a wide variety of requirements, so I think that they can give us an overall idea about what companies look for in the German market. So, please introduce yourselves.
What exactly do you do at Project A?
Molly (Project A): I’m Molly, I’m a working student at Project A. I’ve been working there for about eight months and I’m getting a masters in business psychology so I’m studying a lot of like HR talent acquisition. So, when I am at Project A, I’m doing a lot of recruiting and since we are in venture capital we can work with a lot of different companies, so basically it’s like a lot of different clients.
So you get a wide variety of what other companies want in recruiting and you have to adapter your skills to that. So, I’m doing recruiting, I’m managing the talent pool doing some event organization and basically some kind of like onboarding tactics.
Mirela: Hi, I’m Mirela, I’m actually from Romania but I’ve been living in Berlin for two years and a half. Now I’m at Project A for one year almost. In May it’s gonna be one year. We are doing talent acquisition there as well and yet helping basically recruiting for several roles, tech or non-tech.
In terms of tech I’ve been recruiting Ruby developers, front-end, back-end, with PHP, JAVA, some DevOps guys, infrastructure system admin and that’s it.
Yeah, I’ve been ready to put in some numbers because I know could be very interesting. Overall I think we are seven people in the talent acquisition team, and then in terms of number, I think I actually wrote it down we had so far 2,800 applications in 2019, so that’s for over three months. So that’s quite a lot, that’s more than 1,000 applications per month so we’ve seen a lot of CV’s I would say.
Fernanda (Moderator): That’s great! So, Molly, do you work with several profiles? Mirela you are more focused on the IT people, right?
Mirela: Not necessarily, I think it depends a bit on the situation, which is the demand and everything..
Fernanda (Moderator): Yeah, okay, okay. That’s great, because at Imagine we have a bootcamp for software engineers who live in many countries, especially Egypt, Afghanistan, Pakistan and who wants to get a job here in Germany, so we try to evaluate them, give them feedback on their readiness for job applications. We evaluate their soft skills and hard skills as well and try to advise them how they can prepare themselves to be successful here. So, we have this program more focused on the IT roles, but I believe to have a broader audience that may watch this video, so I believe that your advice can help everyone.
So, let’s start! As you mentioned you had a lot of applications in the last three months and my first question would be:
How do you guys look for talent because we know that candidates they can apply for job positions through the companies websites or through Indeed.com, Xing.com, it’s also common here in Germany but active sourcing is also common between recruiters…
So from your perspective which is most common? Active or passive searching?
And thinking about active searching how relevant LinkedIn is for you for example?
Mirela: Ok, I’ll take this one. It’s relevant because it’s always nice when you post a job and you have applications and you just review them, but then sometimes it can happen that people don’t really apply or especially if there are more senior profiles…Of course if we don’t have a lot of applications, we have to go out there and search by ourselves, and then focusing a bit
on the tech side I would say that LinkedIn is the easiest platform for us because it’s basically the biggest database when it comes to professional CV’s and professional experience, so it’s very easy for us to access.
And normally for that we just do a search LinkedIn to find profiles. So as long as people have LinkedIn we can find them very easily.
If there are some small tricks normally because we use keywords when we search for those profiles, so as long as our keywords would match the profiles, it’s pretty easy for us to find and I guess it is the biggest database.
For tech roles we sometimes use StackOverflow and Github so those could also be relevant profiles, and not only having a profile but rather also being active so it always helps if you comment on StackOverflow or Git answers or like you know interact with other people, and also on the Github if you have projects. Because normally people can see what kind of languages you’ve been using in those projects and it can make the recruiter or the hiring manager understand your profile better. But, yeah, LinkedIn is definitely the easiest way to access that. I mean, once we don’t have a profile on LinkedIn, we have to go a bit further, but if you’re searching for a job I would definitely recommend having LinkedIn.
Fernanda (Moderator): Yeah, just to give you an idea about how different are job applications between different countries is, and in some countries people don’t use that much LinkedIn so we encourage our students to create a profile and to put more detail they can there, of course not too much. But, for example we say that it’s important describing their duties and also some project and specify which languages, frameworks, which technologies they use.
Mirela: Exactly, exactly.
A LinkedIn profile is more or less a CV as well so I think it shouldn’t be too little, and maybe just having the job title and that’s it. That’s also hard for me as a recruiter and if I’m looking at that profile and I just see back-end engineer, I have no idea if he knows Ruby, PHP, JAVA, so I’ll need a bit more details.
But then also having a very long LinkedIn with very long text doesn’t really help, because presently we are screening hundreds of CV’s per day so I won’t have time to read three pages.
Molly: Also, something that’s really important in the LinkedIn is to put in the About Me section that you’re looking for new experiences because it saves a lot of time and it really helps to have a better response rate on our end that we can maybe count on this person a little bit more to respond or to be looking for response.
Mirela: Yeah, yeah, indeed. There is a section in LinkedIn where you can set up that you’re looking for a job so that would be very helpful.
Molly: It’s actually a button you can press — do it!
Mirela: Yeah, you can also write, of course. I think at the beginning, exactly. I mean, that could also help if you’re looking to relocate, especially that can definitely help.
Fernanda (Moderator): Ok, great! My next question, I believe that it was already answered but you can complement. It would be when you are screening, how do you think that, well what makes you feel that that profile matches the position you have. You mentioned that you use some keywords for searching on LinkedIn, but maybe there’s something else that when you read some profile, you feel like this is the guy I’m looking for?
Mirela: Yeah, that depends a bit on the roles. I mean, I’m looking…Normally, to be honest, I’m doing a lot of direct sourcing from our senior profiles because then you’re lacking candidates applying actually. And of course it’s relevant that you actually have experience, so several years of experience.
And I also think that LinkedIn should be quite clean, so showing what you did like I mentioned also, showing the projects you worked on and what languages.
But it’s also very helpful if I don’t have only like the languages as keywords and skills, but not knowing in which project to use them because it may be that you just saw a PHP script and you put it there, or it can be that you coded PHP for the past few years, so that’s a difference and it’s very helpful for our end as well. So I mentioned the tech spec is definitely..uhm…yeah.
Fernanda (Moderator): Ok, great! Do you have any comment, Molly?
Molly: No, I don’t think so.
Fernanda (Moderator): I think that in that part there’s no much difference between tech roles and other kind of roles, right? It’s more or less the same thing.
Molly: Yea, I think on LinkedIn you should be able to comment search exactly what you’re applying for or if you want to be available to certain tech stack, you should be able to comment search at least a couple of things in your profile, that are easily accessible to recruiters because that’s also the command search function is, a good recruiter trick.
Mirela: Yeah, indeed. If you are looking maybe for a PHP developer, I mean you should have at least once PHP mentioned, or the framework that you used for that or for front-end as well.
And also what’s tricky from our is like when I’m looking for example for a front-end engineer is tricky that people can write javascript in different styles like it can be JS, it can be JavaScript in two words or one word so I always have to like think of how people would write that. So as a person looking for a job you can maybe try to put that in different forms in your profile so then you have more chances of being found.
Because maybe recruiters won’t check all options available, maybe they will check just JavaScript in one word but not JS and it’s the same.
Fernanda (Moderator): Okay, great! Thank you! Okay, let’s move now to the next stop. The next stop would be CV. How would you guys describe a perfect CV, an ideal CV?
Molly: I’ll take that one. So basically, there’s like a general aesthetic that you should follow, it should be at least one to two pages, max three, but we’re really not really looking….reading every single line, every single word so it should be fairly condensed. It should be in PDF format, Word documents. Anything that could be altered is just a general NO. And then about the content, you should have your spoken languages because some companies are looking for German speakers, English speakers, whatever…so that’s really important, especially in Berlin.
You really want to include the position that you’re working under, so your title, the company, the city or country of where you worked at that exact company and the duration.
So, month and year. Month is sometimes left out and it can sometimes be really confusing if you work there for the whole 2018 or you know, just one month.
So, that’s really important, I think the only thing about a bad CV would be personal information.
I know that the German way of setting up a CV is that you include a lot of personal information, which is like usually very related to your marital status, how many kids you have, your birthday, things like that. It’s illegal to discriminate against those things so I would just cut it out.
Also, have at least have three key tasks under the position that you are working at. Sometimes, people don’t include anything and that’s really difficult because you don’t actually know what you worked as so yeah, three key tasks, three key takeaways from what you did at that job, it’s really helpful.
Mirela: Also, it shouldn’t be too long with a lot of text, just like I said, people won’t have time to read more than one, two pages. It’s always easy if you have bullet points or it’s something physical to the human eye.
Fernanda (Moderator): Okay, okay, I’ve got it. What about education? What is relevant in terms of education, like only the bachelor and master degree or also short courses like Coursera, Udemy or any other certifications for example is quite common. When people take I don’t know six month course for getting a certification on something and then you quite there, this is relevant or not?
Mirela: I can take this? So in terms of education, especially in the tech roles, as a whole I would say it doesn’t matter that much because again it matters what you know. However, in Germany, it’s a bit tricky especially if people are relocating here because for the working permit and the visa and everything, you sometimes have to have a university degree. So, it makes things much more easy if you don’t relocate here to get a working permit, especially if you actually studied something similar to the work you’re applying for and if you didn’t of course, you don’t have to. But I would say, I would recommend you do that. Regarding certifications, it’s the same like if you have them, sure. But also, think that those are relevant certifications. For example I’ve been recruiting for DevOps role, and normally they would have AWS certification. So for that…that was not the must but the candidate should have known to work with AWS. So if they had a certification, it was definitely a plus because we new that they know about it. But there should be also serious certification, not just that you watched the video on YouTube. It doesn’t mean that you know that. So as long as it’s a relevant course, or certification, yeah, I would put that as well.
Fernanda (Moderator): Ok, cool. And, Molly, you mentioned something interesting which is about personal information. And I know that recruiters they have the concern about avoiding bias so I believe that if the person provides so much personal details, it ends up leading the recruiter to bias somehow, right?
Molly: Yeah, we’re actually just talking about this today because yeah, it shouldn’t hurt to put your family status, your marital status, but sometimes it’s just this subconscious bias that maybe the recruiter might have especially with relocation and visa.
So if somebody has a whole family that means that the company has to take care of the whole family visa process and that’s something that doesn’t need to be considered, that’s something that can be talked about in the first interview.
When you already have established a personal connection and you can see how serious this person is about moving and if they’re yeah.
Fernanda (Moderator): Yeah, this is more important. Like try to…to make sure that you will be shown as a good professional, as a reliable professional, and after that you take care of the details. Do you have any more comments about the LinkedIn…about CV, sorry?
Molly: I think that was…also I would stress like a cover letter as well in addition to a CV. If you have something that’s more complicated, such as a like a product manager to describe what a product you are working on if it’s not clear. Or for instance, if you are full stack engineer applying for front-end you can talk about, describe a little bit more in your CV about what front-end projects you had. Just anything that can be described from your CV that might help you.
I mean if your CV is very clear you don’t need a cover letter, but it depends if your role or application is a little bit ambiguous, it’s helpful.
Fernanda (Moderator): The positions you have usually they demand cover letter or only the CV?
Mirela:
No, so it just the CV is mandatory, but a cover letter is not.
Of course, the cover letter can help because I think if you pass a bit more background on the profile and like Molly says, like if it’s clear that you’ve been a Java developer for the last five years and you apply for a Java developer role then it’s clear. But then if you are full-stack and you maybe want to focus just on the front-end side, then maybe it’s always nice to kind of explain a bit thi change or why do you want to focus on that and give some sort of explanation. And I think the cover letter shouldn’t be again too long, I would even appreciate even two or three paragraphs like half a page, one page, but really on the point and explain why exactly you’re changing, why you’re interested in that but not really too long.
Fernanda (Moderator): So as I’ve understood, the cover letter would be highly recommended. Especially in the case of people who want to change..
Molly: If their CV doesn’t match the role so much, they have the opportunity of you know…when it doesn’t match the recruiter thinks why did you apply to this role and then sometimes actually when you’re reading the cover letter it then becomes very apparent…they’re doing a career change, they did have some experience in this, they want to get back into it…ok I didn’t realize.
Fernanda (Moderator): Ok, cool. Let’s talk about interviews. What are the most common questions you usually ask candidates?
Mirela: So actually I would start here by answering it depends because it depends on their role so it’s very hard to generalize. However one thing that I personally always ask is after I did my introduction in the company, introduction in the role, I always ask the candidates to introduce themselves shortly and that’s very important for me because it’s the idea as the first connection at him or her. So it is that they should know how to present themselves in a short way but still be quite on point and cover the most relevant things that they did so far.
Because in the end always we always…we normally have 30 minutes for an interview and then of course I’ve got my questions, have my introduction, so if the candidate takes 20 minutes just to present themselves, I won’t have time to ask my questions.
So that’s a very important to kind of have some sort of short introduction. Prepared, or you know…the candidate should think a bit about what he should say. It’s relevant and on point and still giving enough details. It depends on the seniority I would say on the roles because if it’s a more junior role…I would like…of course I don’t expect that person to know everything but rather I would test approach of how would they learn stuff and their motivation to learn and to grow and to develop. So it is more like that. If it’s a more senior role, then of course I would like really go and see what they did, what they know, what they are capable of.
And then again, it depends if it’s a very technical role, it’s a tech lead or it’s a team lead. Because again, if it’s a tech lead, I would expect someone to be very strong technically because normally a tech lead would require you to coach other engineers so I would expect you to be the expert in that but if you’re a team lead, normally you’re going to be leading people, so I don’t expect you to be that strong technically, just to have an overview of different technologies, but rather being able to manage people and don’t leave them, and work with them.
So it depends on the roles. So I would say it’s always important to think what is the role and also in the job description where it says what we’re looking for, how the profile should look like and also the questions would be shaped on that most of the time.
Fernanda (Moderator): So, do you have beforehand some questions prepared for focus on hard skills and also on soft skills depending on the role or you create the questions depending on the conversation, how it goes?
Mirela: We normally have some sort of guidelines, or some main questions, or some main point that we want to follow and it’s also that normally it’s a recruiter interview, we’re not going to go that technical, because that’s probably the next feature during the challenge. And then we just kind of try to understand the big picture of everything…and yeah, I would have the main questions that I would want to ask but then I always kind of you know shape my questions on the experience, because if they are talking about their interest in the project maybe I’m interested in that and I focus a bit more on questions on that topic.
So, I also try to kind of make it this open discussion in a way to kind of shape it on the experience with the candidate as well and not ask questions as a robot.
Fernanda (Moderator): Well, while you were talking, I was remembered some students who I interviewed during the bootcamp at Imagine and I remember that I had some candidate who are not so talkative, they are more introspective I would say and they do not talk about so much about themselves, when I asked them to introduce themselves and if they do not give me too much information, I sometimes used to ask more questions, be more like…specifically want to, I want to hear from him…Do you have this situations with more introspective candidates?
Molly: Yeah like more introverted quiet types, yes. And it’s not necessarily like a bad thing to be introverted but I think you have to challenge yourself to say something more than just like you know how are you, I’m good. You really have to sell yourself in the introduction because depending on how shy you are the person that you’re recruiting for the personality aspect is a big part of what they recruit for, so they want to see if you’re going to be a cultural fit to the company and that really sets the tone.
So to challenge yourself to think of something and it’s as easy as the weather…You know, if it’s dark out, if it’s raining, if it’s sunny, it’s just something to talk about and that’s something that everyone seems to have something to say about.
So, yeah, this is a good way to get people talkative and yeah, asking less yes or no questions, but more open ended questions…and just you know can you describe that further, kind of you know try to get people comfortable because actually once you set the tone, sometimes it makes people more comfortable and brings them out of their shell but then at the same time sometimes these people will stay in their shell. Kind of the entire time and it’s yeah, it’s hard to get them out but there’s nothing you can do.
Mirela: Yeah, and also related to that…So it’s a lot of effort in introduction because I know that sometimes people don’t know what to say if I would ask them to introduce themselves and what I like to ask a the person is to kind of walk through my own experience or through my own CV. So, normally I mean also as a candidate can’t be seen front of you during the interview because normally it’s the Skype or a phone interview and then you can just walk through your CV quickly and say OK, so after my graduation I started and I worked two years in this company and I did this project, then I moved to this company and I worked with these tools during these projects and now I could get this company doing this…
So, kind of walking a bit chronologically through your experience could be a good start. As a bonus, you also know what to say!
And I would say also is to think of different situations that you had, I mean normally as a recruiter and also as a hiring manager I would be asked…I would ask you, ok can you tell me more about a difficult situation, about a challenge, how did you approach it, what kind of tools did you use, and for that we’re actually looking for concrete examples, because it’s very easy to talk in general and saying o, when I have a difficult situation I just ask Google and then I solve it. But it’s much better if you give practical example, so prepare some examples about you know, challenges that you had, things that didn’t go so well, things that went very well maybe because you can use that in answering and just giving examples, complete examples.
Fernanda (Moderator): Nice, very nice advice. And you mentioned before that when you talk to junior candidate, it’s much more important not exactly what they know already but their willingness to learn and how they solve problems, how they look for solutions, so maybe this could be a kind of a strategy to show like their proficiency. For example, if you ask about something that the person doesn’t know exactly how to explain or if you ask the person if she remembers about a challenge or a problem in the past and the person didn’t exactly this kind of challenge, maybe they could try to think about something similar and how they approach the situation, and how was the process until they found a solution instead of giving you exactly…
Molly: Exactly!
Mirela: Exactly! So exactly as you mentioned for a junior role, I wouldn’t expect someone to tell me maybe an example from work because if they work for like six months, maybe they didn’t have that but anything from school, be from some other projects that they had. Maybe they had some other projects, they worked for some organizations or something and that can help.
Fernanda (Moderator): So a bit of proactivity also helps?
Mirela: Yeah.
Fernanda (Moderator): Ok, great, great. Let’s move on. What would be in your opinion something that people should absolutely avoid doing during interviews?
Mirela: I’ll take this one. There are not so many no-goes necessarily,
one thing that I think is important is that you shouldn’t interrupt. So, if I’m talking…I actually don’t like to interrupt, and I think also everyone…no one likes to be interrupted.
And then it should be in the end it’s an interview but it should be also a discussion between the recruiter and the candidate or the hiring manager and the candidate.
Because it is the idea that I’m presenting something about the company, the role and I’ll ask you some questions, you can also ask me some questions. And, it’s a discussion, I would expect respect and not being interrupted but then also I would expect the candidate would listen to me because actually unfortunately sometimes it happens that I’m talking about the role and what it requires when you’re looking for someone, how big is the team, how many people are in the organization and then again I’m asked exactly the same questions. How big is the organization? How’s the team? And it’s also a bit frustrating for me because they never listen to me. So I would also expect that. But other than that it is just a normal conversation where we have to listen and you answer and then you ask your questions as well.
Fernanda (Moderator): I think it’s important trying to establish a kind of relationship with the interviewer. Between the interviewer and the interviewee.
Mirela: Exactly, that’s very important.
Fernanda (Moderator): Like, pay attention, respect the time of the other to talk and maybe ask questions as well but of course not the questions you already answered but…
Mirela: Yeah, of course…Definitely. Because, also like, normally can be talking an introduction of the company and the role, but probably five minutes, because now I have to move forward so I can maybe just give some details. Then you as a candidate if you’re interested in something specific, so for sure, normally I always give at the end sometimes for the questions for the candidate in the case they have some.
Fernanda (Moderator): Ok. Great. My next question is more related to the duration of the selection process. You know that when people apply for a job and they really want to get that job to be successful, that they get quite anxious about it and sometimes the answer takes more time than they expected so they get a bit anxious and sometimes they approach us only on Linkedin, or by e-mail and ask — hey I finished my last test one week ago, do you think it’s a problem if I follow up my interviewer and ask for a result because they didn’t reply to me. So what do you think guys. On your opinion, this is problem, this is something that’s annoying you or it’s something that could show the candidates interest for the position?
Molly: Let me take this one. So, usually at the end of the interview process, either the interviewer or the candidate will develop some type of when are you going to get back to me question. So the interviewer, I usually go over it and it’s usually for us about seven business days. You know, sometimes it can be a little bit you know, maybe by the end of next week…but at least seven business days is our core, and that should be agreed upon in the interview I would say to avoid any confusion and if the recruiter doesn’t say it, the candidate can ask themself.
I think something that a lot of people don’t do is a follow-up interview e-mails like “thanks for the interview, I’m looking forward to your feedback next week”. So if the interviewer doesn’t get back to that candidate within the agreed-upon time, then I think it’s appropriate to send a follow-up e-mail. So, if it’s been longer than seven days, maybe wait one extra day just to know…maybe they’re like about to send me one and then you can ask — “hey, just you know..just following up…”. If you do it too early, you run the risk of getting lost in the e-mail box of the interviewer anyway because recruiting is a fairly quick process. So if we do have an update, we want to give it to you immediately, so we don’t then…then your e-mail just gets lost and we kind of forget. So, yeah, definitely. But don’t be too antsy, just wait a few days and someone will come back to you.
Fernanda (Moderator): Ok, great. So, again about the duration and the steps of the selection process. After finding talent on the company’s website or the LinkedIn, or other platform, after having the first interview, what are the common next steps in your experience?
Molly: So, usually the next steps really depends on the role and we are particularly different because we’re a venture capital and we work with different clients that aren’t necessarily at our office. So, most of the time, well, you know, the phone screen is by the TA. That’s usually the first step, then it will go to the hiring manager at our venture or it will go to the hiring manager…so the department head at our company and then depending on the seniority level..or yeah, usually most seniority level above working interns have a case study…
Mirela: Or some sort of practical exercise, especially for the tech roles, I think that’s quite common…that you have a case study to prepare at home or maybe like in real time with a hiring manager or with some people from the team, i’d say that’s quite common actually. And I also understood sometimes people would have…the candidates would have some tryout days with the future team, so that could be an option.
Molly: Normally, you have to…I mean if you’re super far away, sometimes an on site isn’t ideal, but for example if it is for a lead or sometimes even a senior role, or above that, an on site is usually pretty crucial…
Mirela: Yeah…It also depends on what country we are talking about and how realistic it is to invite someone from another country.
Fernanda (Moderator): Okay, well…for finishing our conversation before we go to the questions from the audience, what would you guys advise our students in order to better prepare for the interviews or for building a more powerful LinkedIn profile, or powerful CV. What would be your advice for them if you could advise one thing?
Mirela: I really like to say…maybe I have a bit more time I think. It’s not just the company choosing the candidate, but also the candidate choosing the company.
So, you shouldn’t just apply randomly to 20, 30, 40, 100 jobs and then wait for companies to get back to you, but really be selective yourself because at the end of the day you will be working for 40 hours with those people and that team for that company.
That’s more than you sleep probably so it’s quite important that you also choose, I think, that you like that, to enjoy that. So, be a bit more selective as a candidate in your research. It’s much better if you just apply to three companies and you really did your research in order to like the company, what they are doing…You know what to expect rom that, where to ask, what to focus on. And then, also, regarding the relocation part it’s also important if you do your own research on that because yeah, maybe the companies know some stuff but then in the end startups or smaller companies that don’t have the capacity to maybe support your relocation, support visa process, support working permit, so it’s always goo that you did some research by yourself if you need those things.
If you’re actually eligible to move and to work here, what you need, if you need a university degree because sometimes it can happen if you don’t have a university degree, you can get the working permit. So, it’s always good you do that research and also got the cost of living here, know what to expect here.
Just google living in Germany, living in Berlin, cost of life, working in Berlin and so on and then you’ll find a lot of websites that can help you and I guess try to see what is important to you as a candidate and what do you find important in the company. And, also, that’s how you normally note for a candidate it’s sometimes hard to ask questions in the interview, they don’t know what to ask and they feel that they have to ask, so, just in what would you like to know about that company, what’s important for you…
If you see yourself working in that place, how would you like it to be and then the questions are also gonna kind of pop up in your mind.
Fernanda (Moderator): I think the cultural fear, that everybody talks a lot about, I think it’s a two-way road.
Mirela: Exactly, exactly.
Fernanda (Moderator): You have to fit your values, your personal values and professional role should fit into the cultural…the company culture, but also the contrary. If we match both, then I think we would have a successful relationship, not only professionally, but also personally. And you, Molly, what would you advise our students to do?
Molly: Yeah, to go for what we said about, really just taking your time to
do the research about three companies that you like because in my opinion you should always be tailoring your CV’s to match the company.
So, at least double checking to see maybe your CV is relevant to two companies, but at the same time you’re going to read two job descriptions and they’re gonna have different qualifications and different company cultures. So, basically you want to sell yourself on whatever you identify most with. So, if you’re strongest in this tech language, you want to make sure that it reflects the CV or the job description of this company. If the company is international and you’re also like an expat, or you have international experience, like, make sure that’s visible in your CV that you worked somewhere else.
And basically, then, just like overall readiness of knowing your schedule, making sure that if you do get an interview and you know you’re like…Oh I have a coffee date with my buddy…
Interviews should be first priority because the longer you wait in that application process, the more somebody else who’s really good might come before you and oh, the job is closed.
And people are coming from abroad and in a different time zone.
We sometimes forget that people are not in the same time zone as we are so to know when you’re scheduling an interview, and usually the recruiter will mention the time zone but sometimes we also forget.
So, you know, to be mindful of not sending, oh yeah, I’m available at this time and that’s actually Berlin time, like 3am. So, just putting in your research which I really like what you said about the three companies because, yeah, if you’re applying to Berlin and somewhere else in the world, you know kind of like research of how many euros you want to earn per hour, your visa status, how your CV should be different in Germany vs Brazil or something. Yeah, just to do a little general knowledge…
Molly: Also, for this I think a trick would be to actually have an excel file on yourself when you apply and also people do that and it can be very helpful because then you can you know, write the company where you applied, the position, when did you apply if you got contacted and have an interview, and then maybe also when they promise to get back to you, and which are the next steps.
And then also if the recruiter forgets to tell you that, ask always and then you put the details into that excel file and then keep track. And then you also maybe don’t end up applying to the same job two or three times, it can be because they are also posting jobs on like different channels, so then maybe you find the job on our careers page or maybe you find a job on Linkedin. But if you didn’t do a lot of research it can be that it is the same job. And then you apply to both of them from different channels but normally the system would recognize that it’s the same application. So, yeah…
That’s also good kind…keep track of companies where you apply.
Fernanda (Moderator): That’s important, that’s important. So, it tells me that two things are most important for getting successful job application at least in the initial phase, in the recruitment phase. Information first, get information about the country you want to go in, also about the companies you are applying for and the strategy. Having kind of organization and try to have strategy as well like I said…Like having an excel sheet to follow each process, each company and so on. Okay, great! Thank you guys! Thank you very much! We have questions from the audience.
Start of Q&A
Audience: I can start. First of all thank you so much for helping us, for being here today. You are… I’m actually taking notes, so you’re helping my career as well, thanks. Molly, and then Fernanda, brought something that is being quite frequent in my last few Imagine graduation chats, which is the culture fit interview. And one interesting episode was when a guy was just rejected after a culture fit interview and he was a bit sad because he didn’t know where did I fail and so on, so he was asking for some insights on how to prepare for the next ones, and sending you this same question.
What would be some good insights on how to prepare for these that which is not so technical, also you have to show that you would well belong that space and stuff like that?
Molly: Yeah, so, I think a
cultural fit could mean a lot of things and sometimes it just means how the team is structured, so those people who happen to be in the team, what kind of personalities they have, but also what kind of company the company is.
So, like startups versus corporate, it has a very different cultural vibe and that usually structures about how your tasks will be.
So, a lot of people who come from corporate have one specific task that they focus on because there’s so many people and when they come to startups they’re a little frustrated that everything is a little bit disorganized and there’s just like a lot of room for change which is what the startup vibe is supposed to be about and it’s good. But some people aren’t used to that, so I think that you can really test this in an interview because some people actually come from corporate and they actually have more of a startup mentality, anyway. But, was that like the cultural fit or what type of cultural fit were you specifically…?
Audience: Yeah, um….Basically stuff like that. Like you are working in one kind of company or coming from different country and this things that pass through someone’s mind that say, ok am I good to work in a startup because I’ve worked for eight years in a bigger company or will it be okay if I apply for German company because I am from a South America, stuff like that…So the main idea is sometimes people are being unsure on how can they show that they would be a good addition to that team or company. So, yeah, I’m always thinking…I always…first of all to your research think about which company are you applying to. Do you think you are a good match and once you come to that conclusion, it’s easier to show why you were good match to the company. So, and your insights as well are quite awesome, so thanks!
Mirela: It is true, exactly like you said. You should basically do your research and see if you see yourself in that team. It’s not just the team choosing you, but you’re also choosing the team, because you’re going to end up working for them.
Audience: And with that answer you can also show other people why you should fit the team because you cut to that point.
Molly: Yeah, I remember you know, one place I interviewed for. They had something like a coffee machine, like they have really good coffee in Berlin, it’s really cool coffee machine, it’s not ours, and yeah, I worked with them because I was like oh I really like coffee, like you guys must be coffee people as well if you’ve got this really nice machine in the office. But also ike a good tip is that some companies are posting on social media and that’s usually where they’ll show their more playful side.
So, I mean if they don’t post on social media then they’re possibly more of a serious company, but yeah you can really see the tone of the company in that because…Yeah, Project A website, you can see the tone…
Mirela: And I would say also in the first call
that’s also a good question to kind of ask about that. Hey, how is it to work there, how flexible it is, do you go out for events, do you go for a drink after work, are you friends…
Just ask these kind of questions to kind of get the feeling of the culture and see if you fit there. And like you said, it’s much easier to argue your own personality. And I would say also because you mentioned this corporate and startup. Because especially in Berlin there are so many startups and if you’re coming to relocate here, it’s very easy to find jobs in the startups and that can be indeed different from a more corporate world and bigger companies.
So I think if you’re also open to that, because if you work with like 7 years in a very huge company where you just did your small thing, in the startup you have to cover the roles of tech people…everything. Come with your initiative and like just do stuff. So if you think you’re able to do that, if you want to do that,and then like I said it’s much more easier to kind of argue as well. And I would also include that in the application if that’s the case. If you have a corporate background and you’re applying for a startup, explain a bit why this changed.
Audience: Ok, nice, thank you.
Mirela: You’re welcome!
Audience: Thanks! I have actually two questions now. The first would be about expected salary. Sometimes it’s optional, sometimes it’s not. In my case if I’m going to glassdoor.com I can do a lot of research and I still have like such a range…where I go like, okay if I give a really big range I have absolutely no idea what the real value is. If I give a range that I just, that it’s just gonna get me to get kicked out of the application process. Can we have some insights about that?
Molly: Yeah, I mean, one short thing is that you should have like an idea of what you want but I think it’s really important to say how flexible you are. I mean some people just truly don’t want to earn less than X amount, but if you’re more like I really like this company, I want this ideally, this is what I researched, that as like the benchmark in Berlin, but I’m totally open to talk about it.
Because, sometimes, if you don’t mention that, sometimes we think how serious is this person. We might go with another person who has a more fitted salary expectation.
Mirela: And then I would say because I know that in terms of numbers vary quite different but it also depends on the company. So it depends, if it’s like a small company and they’re on the market for just two years, they just got first investment they don’t have money. So probably the budget would be quite low, so that’s the low end of the range. But then if you apply for the bigger companies, also the budgets are higher, so they can also go for a higher budget. In the end of the day it’s also the idea of thinking what do you need like if you’re moving here with family and you have to support the whole family, I guess it’s you might ask for a bit more.
And if it’s just you and it depends where it is, if it’s in Berlin, the living style is not so expensive. So think also what do you need to live properly and say like Molly said, how flexible you are with that. And you can also ask something that some candidates do, and they are like in the end ok. You can ask what case is that within the budget, do I fit there, how is it and just have an open discussion with the recruiter about that. Because, normally I also say sometimes if the salary expectations are way too high, I say our budgets are much lower than that. Are you open to discuss on that? Some are, some are not. It depends on each person. I would say to make that an open discussion with the recruiter in the first call.
Audience: But that would be actually a lot of questions sometimes. I don’t know how often it happens that it doesn’t even let you get to a discussion. Because once you get into a discussion I think it’s fine. Because, sometimes in for example, Glasdoor.de then a lot of the times you have the optional expected salary. Whether to fill it in or not because sometimes it’s optional but it’s a still no text, it’s just a number.
Mirela: I don’t like that. Exactly for this because it really needs people to put number but sometimes they just want to say I’m in this range but open to talk. Yeah, it actually gets tricky because also for us, we have very similar position sometimes but recruiting for different companies so we also have different budgets.
It’s good for us to kind of have an understanding because if you are asking two times our budget, you might be flexible but you’re not gonna accept half of your salary expectations.
Audience: And if it’s optional, just don’t fill it in?
Mirela: Yeah, you can put a range. I would say like, a range would be good. And then you can also think of your minimum range that you wouldn’t go lower than that.
Molly: Because if you don’t put it, you run the risk that the recruiter assumes and if you’ve had like X amount of positions, we couldn’t say like ok, they work in this many roles for this many years, they’re probably expecting this, so they’re probably not going to want this amount which also might not be exactly what you have in your mind.
Mirela: Or you can also do some testing and kind of put something very low for one job application, something very high for one job application.
Molly: This is where the excel sheet comes in handy.
Mirela: Exactly!
Audience: This is what I wanted to add in terms of what you think of maybe, oh I would like to discuss this in a further moment if I go on through the process.
Mirela: But then probably you’re gonna get the same question in the first call. Then you have to also say something.
So it’s also good to have a number in mind. Also, for yourself, not necessarily for the recruiter or the company, but for yourself because…in the end we also work for money.
Audience: Just don’t leave it blank. Right?
Molly: Yeah, I mean if you just put, I think it shows something about your personality. If you’re open to discussion, you’re usually looking more of a cultural fit for yourself in a company and not just for the money which is actually more like the startup vibe in general to have like a cultural fit, unfortunately it’s also like less money sometimes. So, yeah.
Mirela: I want to add one more thing because I know that they have a question. No, I would say here it actually also depends I guess on the other person, so on the company. Some of them are more strict in regards to that, and then if you put like 20.000 more than their budget, they would say no. Some are flexible because they can ask and yeah, it’s not the ideal situation but it also depends on the other person on how flexible they are and how strict they are. So that’s why it’s also very hard to generalize if it’s good to put something or or not, because it also depends on the recruiter who is reviewing your CV.
Audience: Yeah, follow-up question on the salary topic and actually thanks for also stressing that in the end it shouldn’t be too much about the money, so probably it’s good advice not to talk too much about the entire topic in the interview. Still, I haven’t heard any numbers,
so imagine like I’m a PHP developer with four years of work experience, full-time after college and I’m not applying for senior position, but for the mid-level back-end position for companies in your portfolio, what is an acceptable range?
Mirela: That could be a very high range unfortunately.
Molly: You have benchmarks, so I don’t know exactly how we figured out the benchmarks, but it’s something between Berlin average, Germany average possibly…
Mirela: We think for like…ok, maybe I should give some numbers. For medium back-end it think it’s about forty, forty five thousands, up to seventy gross salary per year (before tax) maybe if the company’s big. But that’s like for bigger companies. But then if it’s smaller, it depends also. It’s quite a big range.
Audience: What we’ve seen from fellows that got higher is that they are on average about fifty, but not like too much, so it’s between fifty and sixty. This is what we’ve seen for these people.
Mirela: Something that is also very hard to say, especially for the tech roles, because if you have like 5 years experience, at the end it depends on what you know. Because maybe you know as much as someone who has two years of experience because that person worked more intense in a way. So it’s not ideal to put this based on the number of years.
Audience: Thank you!
Fernanda (Moderator): Any more questions? Ok. Well, how people can check the open positions for the companies they work for..maybe?
Mirela: So I would say the easiest is our website, which is Project-A.com/careers or just google in Project A ventures and then basically there’s the career there. Or LinkedIn and some other platforms I guess. I know, it’s on Google, if you search Project A ventures jobs.
Fernanda (Moderator): I also invite you to apply for a bootcamp on Joinimagine.com, if you’re a software engineer and you want to get a job in Europe, Germany especially, please apply for our bootcamp. Thank you guys!
Mirela: Thank you as well!
Audience: Thank you all for your time and detailed advice. All the best.
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